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Dog Aggression (Read 1413 times)
bilbob
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #15 - Feb 2nd, 2010, 9:01pm
 
thanks Claire  Grin
 
My understanding is that we need to know when to stop the tug and let them win (they win everytime) -
 
 with Bilbo it's when he starts to get growly
 
I need to use a 2nd toy or high value food treat after I have let go and let him win
 
Then he drops the tug - it is 'dead' and I take it off the ground ready for the next game
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annieszoo
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #16 - Feb 2nd, 2010, 9:13pm
 
But it is when the game has only just started, it is immediate, and we really havnt got into the reason why we are doing it Sad  surely winning everytime, when the game has not got under way, defeats the object Huh
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Claire WF
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #17 - Feb 2nd, 2010, 9:30pm
 
Have you tried "fetch-tug? Maybe that would drain the edge off his enthusiasm?
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annieszoo
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #18 - Feb 2nd, 2010, 9:55pm
 
"fetch-tug"?
 
meaning as it says, throw and then fetch??
 
not interested, no fun in that!
 
he is certainly a challenge, something different everyday raises its head kiss
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annieszoo
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #19 - Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:00pm
 
I have to also add, that this thread started as Dog aggression, which my boy is not, but, I could imagine, his behaviour treated differently, could go the other way?
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neilsattin
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #20 - Feb 3rd, 2010, 5:01am
 
A few thoughts:
 
Annie - as I'm sure you've experienced, it can take any dog awhile to acclimate to a new situation.  Take a dog that's been rehomed as many times as you've described, and it's going to take a reliable structure (one that includes, I might add, a predictable way of releasing energy and stress, as pushing will do) that will help settle the emotional pathways down.  Takes time.
 
As for getting your fingers munched - yes, definitely using your pushing hand to maintain distance (as well as the position of your food hand - i.e. move it back a little).  That's if you're getting nipped before you actually feed.  But if you're getting nipped during the feeding, perhaps your fingers are in the way?  I know that might sound self-evident, but what I mean is:  are you doling out food, or keeping your fingers around the food to ensure that your dog gets every morsel?  My suggestion would be to go from "closed hand" (food off) to "open hand" (food on) - and open hand means "get your thumb and fingers out of the way".  Sometimes I've had a REALLY voracious dog actually nip the flesh of my palm - but even that is generally only occasional.  Again, that's something that typically technique can minimize, if not eliminate.
 
With tug, I tend to use higher resistance toys (i.e. tougher, less pliable) as a dog gets more and more into the game...though mostly don't have to go beyond using lengths of natural rubber garden hose that I cut to length as needed.  I prefer a longer toy (and yes, letting go before the dog gets to your fingers is a good idea!).
 
While there is something "neat" about using a smaller toy, or even accidentally finding your fingers in the mouth of a dog, when you discover that your dog has an in-the-moment ability to discern what's in their mouth (and, hopefully, not completely chomp down on it), I think that it makes sense to use toys that guarantee, as much as possible, your hand's safety.  Remember that point of tug is to get your dog to bite and tug without inhibition, and if your dog has to think about what they're doing (e.g. "don't bite the hand!") then that will get in the way of them giving you their energy.
 
Fetchtug is a way of combining chase/fetch/tug - and yes, that might be a good alternative for you, at least as a potential way to off-load some energy before the tugging.  Link here:
http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/09/dog-training-one-great-workout-that-t eaches-your-dog-to-fetch-and-come-to-you-enthusiastically/
 
Using two identical toys is also the preferred method of controlling the game (vs. food treat exchange for tug toy - which I only do if I don't have a 2nd toy around).  It helps you maintain the flow, I think.  That way you become much more fluid in your interaction with your dog, and correspondingly more at ease working at the higher levels of drive.  And YOUR relaxation is key to staying in that "flow" state.
 
In my experience, transitioning dogs to "fetchtug" keeps them much more interested in the game and is WAY more (seemingly) fun for them.  
 
Cheers!
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annieszoo
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #21 - Feb 3rd, 2010, 8:01am
 
Thanks so much Neil, I do realise that I have to really work on this, cos I think if I dont, the biting issues will raise the game when I start agility training,   once that is all shaped, I think I am going to have a really fab agility dog, he has so much enthusiasam and drive, I can also see why he had so many homes cry
 
Thankyou very much for taking time out to do such a detailed reply, much appreciated.
 
Anne
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merlindog
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #22 - Feb 3rd, 2010, 8:19am
 
I have been Reading these posts with such interest, it's so relevant for us with merlin. We have tried the pushing before when he was younger saw a good change in behaviour got complacent and stopped so we have just started again oover last few weeks which we are going to keep going this time in the hope he is more responsive to me!!!!  
 
As for tug we used to have a dog driven to tug and no it's not easy to get him into a game of tug and it would be a fab way of draining energy. We spent along time following what we thought were the rules of tug eg getting him to play politely so not winning every time, stopping game if got to boystrous and being able to take the tug away from him, I can't help wondering if we have made it boring for him- should we just allow it to be a bit more raw and not so controlled?  
 
Tug chase might be good as merlin likes the motion of moving and running so maybe give that a go, but really intersting thread!  
 
Vicki
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bilbob
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #23 - Feb 3rd, 2010, 7:54pm
 
Thanks for the posts Neil - I have read some of the stuff before but it takes time to 'sink in and come together'
 
In particular re-reading  
 
http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/09/dog-training-how-to-redirect-an-excit ed-or-aggressive-dog-on-a-walk/
 
was really helpful
 
I was making the mistake of trying to distract my dog to push when he gets reactive
 
But your suggestions of waiting for a signal that may show his frustration and break in focus, to cue me offering an alternative has reminded me of what I am trying to do
 
A 'light bulb' moment - that's why we weren't moving on - doh!
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Nat
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #24 - Feb 26th, 2010, 11:40am
 
Hi everyone,
 
I've found that pushing has definately helped me and Jack and although we have a lot of work to do I've found that the time I have to wait for a break in the barking or chase to the 'exciting thing' has reduced massively in the last few months.
 
Anne - we had the same tug/biting problems with Jack and I did a lot of work with 2 tuggys to teach him to be more targetted about where his teeth go. We play a really fast paced game which is basically swapping 2 tuggys as fast as you can with a "Ready!" . . . "get it!". I'm sure you know all about this but for those of you out there that might want to know, hold one tuggy at both ends and skip backwards holding the tug in front and getting your dog excited about it. Say "READY!" . . .  to get them focussed and then a "get it!" as a release for them to grab the tug (not your hand!). When I started doing this, to make sure Jack's teeth were on toy not skin I pushed the tug slightly forward into his mouth as he opened it to grab the tug on the "get it!" release so he couldn't go wrong. As soon as your dog has the tug in his mouth, let him win it and then magically appear your identical tuggy from the back of your trousers (that's were I hide my tuggys - no comments please!  Grin) and say "READY!" . . . to get your dogs attention on the new toy, wait until they drop the first tuggy then say "get it!" and let them win, then pick up the tuggy on the floor and repeat again and again Smiley The idea is to get quicker and be on the move once you and your dog get used to it all.
 
It definately helped with Jack to target the tug with his teeth when he's excited (which is most of the time when there's a tug game on offer!  Wink) and also helps with tuning into the realease word and holding himself back even though he's sooo excited (although it's a fast paced game so the idea isn't to make them wait too much, they should pretty much have a tug in their mouth constantly).
 
Sorry for the massively long post! I would be really interested to hear what you all think about the game as it's been pretty successful for us Smiley
 
Nat x
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Claire WF
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #25 - Feb 26th, 2010, 2:44pm
 
You can also use a tug on a length of rope Wink If you hold the tug so it is hanging vertically would he still aim for your hand?
 
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annieszoo
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Re: Dog Aggression
Reply #26 - Feb 27th, 2010, 12:09am
 
No matter where Jerry grabs the tug, he manages to work his way to the, so I have to let go with one hand pick up grab the free end, clever little bugger.  He is frantic to start with still, but it soon wanes after a few mins, same as the push feeding, he is much calmer much quicker. apart from the odd day, he has been having all his meals push fed, definately has had a dramatic effect on his behaviour.  I am very pleased to say Wink
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